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Abortion: the Other side of the Argument

August 5th, 2022 by Matt
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Several years ago, I gave a talk on the morality of abortion at New Hope Community Church in East Auckland. This talk was based on my Ph.D. research at Otago University. Apparently, in the wake of recent supreme court decisions in America, some interest has been expressed in this talk. So, I attach it here.

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Evil, limited, and Indifferent deities: The Horrendous Deeds Objection Redivivus?

November 22nd, 2021 by Matt
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Last week, I was scheduled to present the above paper at the Annual Meeting of the Evangelical Philosophical Society at Fort Worth, Texas. Unfortunately, Auckland’s lockdown prevented this, and the paper had to be cancelled due to the logistics involved. I did, however, pre-record the talk, so it is available below:

Abstract: A common objection to divine command meta-ethics (‘DCM’) is the horrendous deeds objection. Critics object that if DCM is true, anything at all could be right, no matter how abhorrent or horrendous. Defenders of DCM have responded by contending that God is essentially good: God has certain character traits essentially, such as being loving and just. A person with these character traits cannot command just anything. 

Recently, Jason Thibodeau[1] has offered a new version of the horrendous deed’s objection. Thibodeau, asks us to imagine the existence of Yod, a being just like God, who lacks omnibenevolence. Thibodeau argues that if God’s commands can ground morality so can Yod’s and Yod can command horrendous deeds. In this paper I examine and refute Thibodeau’s argument. I look at three interpretations of Thibodeau’s of objection (a) the objection from God’s moral grounding power, (b) the objection from evil and indifferent deities, and (c) the objection from lesser deities. I will maintain all of them fail.

Appeals to moral-grounding power, malevolent, indifferent, or lesser benevolent deities, do not salvage the horrendous deeds objection.

 



[1] Thibodeau, J. (2019). God’s love is irrelevant to the Euthyphro problem. Sophia, 58(3), 437–453.

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Published: “The Psychopath Objection to Divine Command Theory: Another Reply to Erik Wielenberg”

October 4th, 2021 by Matt
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My paper, “The Psychopath Objection to Divine Command Theory: Another Reply to Erik Wielenberg” has now been published by The European Journal for Philosophy of Religion here.  The abstract is as follows:

Recently, Erik Wielenberg has developed a novel objection to divine command metaethics (DCM). The objection is that DCM “has the implausible implication that psychopaths have no moral obligations and hence their evil acts, no matter how evil, are morally permissible”. This article criticizes Wielenberg’s argument. Section 1 expounds Wielenberg’s new “psychopath argument” in the context of the recent debate over the Reasonable Unbelievers Objection. Section 2 discusses two ambiguities in the argument: in particular, Wielenberg’s formulation is ambiguous as to whether Wielenberg uses the word “obligation” in an objective or subjective sense. Section 3 argues that this ambiguity undercuts the argument. If Wielenberg is using the word obligation in a subjective sense, his arguments do not show that psychopaths “have no moral obligations”. By contrast, if Wielenberg is using the word obligation in an objective sense, his arguments do not show that divine command theorists are committed to denying that psychopaths have obligations.

A pre-published copy is available on my academia.edu page. 

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Matt Speaks at Orewa Community Church.

September 27th, 2021 by Matt
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I was scheduled to speak on the topic “The Holy Spirit teaches” at Orewa Community Church on Sunday September the 26th. Because the government ordered New Zealand into lockdown six weeks ago, and has maintained Auckland in lockdown since, I had to do the message in an ad hoc manner by video.

The message is available below, the quality is not as good as I would have liked. But I think it is good enough for general consumption.

 

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Can a Divine Command Theory Vindicate the Objectivity of Morality: Huemer on Observer Independence, part two

September 12th, 2021 by Matt
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In my last post, I discussed Michael Huemer’s argument that a divine command theory cannot vindicate the objectivity of moral requirements. As I interpret him, the  argument is:

[1] Our commitment to morality presupposes that moral requirements are objective.

[2] Moral requirements are objective just in case there obtain facts about what is right and wrong that do not constitutionally depend upon the attitude of observers towards the objects of evaluation.

[3] If divine command metaethics is true, facts about right and wrong constitutively depend upon the attitudes of an observer towards the objects of evaluation.

I think [3] and [1] are questionable.

Let us begin with [3]. For [3] to be accurate, a divine command theory must entail that facts about right and wrong constitutively depend upon the attitudes of an observer. It is not enough that these facts depend upon God’s attitudes in some way or other. These attitudes must constitute moral facts in part or whole.

Why think that [3] is true? Presumably, the inference goes like this:  If a divine command theory is true, then facts about right and wrong are identical with facts about what actions have been commanded by God. However, facts about what actions have been commanded and prohibited by God are constituted by facts about God’s attitudes. So, a divine command theory entails that facts about observers attitudes constitute deontic facts.

However, it is not evident that facts about what actions have been commanded and prohibited by God are constituted by facts about God’s attitudes. In the literature, it is common to distinguish divine command theories from divine will or attitude theories.[1] Divine will theories contend that God’s attitudes towards certain actions constitute deontological facts. By contrast, a divine command theory contends deontological facts are identical with facts about what actions have been commanded by God.  Attitudes and commands are not the same things. Robert Adam’s stresses that “moral obligation is understood in terms of what God requires of us”. But, “requiring is something we do in relationship to each other it essentially involves communicative acts”. It is not logically equivalent to having a positive or negative attitude towards that action.

The difference between commanding and merely willing is significant. Divine command theorists like Adam’s defend a divine command theory because they believe “the will of a legislature imposes no obligations without being commanded”. To illustrate this, Adam’s provides some examples, where what a person desires or wills and what the command comes apart.

 “Religiously, obedience to God is in large part a matter of respect for God; and interhuman examples suggest that respect would follow commands in preference to unexpressed desires. The wait staff in a restaurant show me benevolence, perhaps, but scant respect, if they bring me what they think I want instead of what I actually ordered.” [2]

So, when a divine command theorist claims deontological facts are identical with facts about what actions God commanded, it doesnt follow that God’s attitudes constitute these facts. To get that conclusion, we need to assume that commands are constituted by attitudes. Seeing someone can command X without a pro attitude towards it, and someone can have a pro attitude towards x without commanding this is not obvious.

This brings us to [1], Suppose divine command theories do entail moral facts constitutively depend upon an observer’s (i.e. God’s) attitudes. This is only problematic if our commitment to morality presupposes that moral facts are objective in this sense of the word.  If we define an objective fact as a fact that does not constitutively, as opposed to causally, depend on an observer’s attitudes. It does not seem to me that [1] is true.

Objectivist metaethical theories’ plausibility consists of their accounting for and vindicating certain presuppositions of our moral thought and practice.  Our moral thought and practice assume that beings like you and I can make mistaken judgements. We have limited information, are prone to biases, and make errors of fact and reason. We reason about morality to discern which evaluations our human compatriots are correct and which are not. We use reasons to support and verify some judgments and criticize others showing they are mistaken.  We defend some of the evaluations of our society against criticisms.[3] We reject others as oppressive, immoral and in need of reform. We think our society made moral progress by rejecting slavery and racial segregation. We believe the Nazi’s evaluation of racism was mistaken, and Martin Luther King Juniors was closer to the truth.  We think some moral reformers who criticized widely endorse policies were correct. They have given us a better understanding of what is right and wrong. We believe certain actions, like the rape and murder of a small child, are wrong even if I or my society endorsed them.

In Ethical Intuitionism, Huemer himself emphasises several of these assumptions. He notes (i) the judgements of Neo Nazi’s and Nazi society were mistaken.  (ii) That we engage in real disagreement with our compatriots, but individually and collectively contradicting what they say and offering reasons for and against their judgements. (iii) That individuals and societies are not infallible moral judges and (iv) that human judgements can be based on arbitrary reasons.[4]

These assumptions presuppose moral facts obtain independently of the evaluation of human appraisers: appraisers like you and I who are subject to these cognitive deficiencies. Who are fallible, make mistakes, can be prejudiced and arbitrary, and ignorant of relevant facts.  They do not presuppose that this independence is only constitutive. They do not assume this independence applies to all possible appraisers. Even an infallible omniscient, impartial appraiser upon whose will everything else depends for its existence.

Two examples will illustrate this.  Take a crude relativist theory: where actions are morally required if and only if, and because, my social group approves of them. This theory is a paradigmatic example of a subjectivist theory. All most everyone rejects it because it contradicts the objectivist presuppositions of moral thought.  Yet, according to Huemer’s view, whether this theory vindicates the objectivity of morality depends solely on whether societies approval causes or constitutes moral facts.

Suppose there are two versions of this theory. (a) One claims the property of being morally required is identical to the property of being socially approved.  (b), Another claims my society can directly and immediately bring it about that I am required to do something by approving of it. Neither of these theories will vindicate the objectivists presuppositions of our moral thought. Both will entail that correct evaluation are co-extensive with the attitudes of my society. So, both will have implications that contradict the relevant presuppositions mentioned above. Nevertheless, in Huemer’s view, (b) entails that moral facts are objective and (a) does not.  Consequently,  a theory can vindicate the objectivity of morality, in Huemer’s sense of the word, yet fail to vindicate any objectivist presuppositions of our moral thought and practice.

A second example, consider a form of naturalistic moral realism whereby moral facts are facts about the causal properties of certain actions. Rightness just is the property an action has when it tends to increase or enhance our happiness. Wrongness just is the property an action has when it tends to diminish our happiness. This is a paradigmatic objectivist theory. It makes wrongness depend on facts about causal physical properties of actions. It vindicates the objectivist presuppositions of our moral thought and practice. The judgements human appraisers make about causal properties can fail to correspond to causal reality.   Yet on Huemer’s view, whether this theory vindicates the objectivity of morality depends solely on what its advocates believe about the ontology of laws of nature.

Suppose John and Mary jointly develop and defend a theory of this sort. Although they agree on the ontology of moral facts, John and Mary have different views on the ontology of laws of nature. Mary is an atheist who accepts David Armstrong’s thesis that laws of nature are a form of natural necessity[5]. By contrast, John is a Theist who accepts the view of early modern scientists that laws of nature are just the laws by which God governs the natural world. He accepts Alvin Plantinga’s[6] and John Foster’s[7] defence of the thesis that Laws of nature are divine decrees. 

John and Mary advocate the same meta-ethical theory. But, Huemer’s definition entails that Mary’s theory vindicates the objectivity of morality and John’s theory does not. Their thesis is that certain causal properties of actions constitute the wrongness of actions. John believes that causal laws are constituted by God’s willing certain regularities occur. So, John is committed to claiming that wrongness constitutively depends on God’s will.  Mary has no such commitments.

However, this difference between Mary and John makes no difference whatsoever for how well their joint theory vindicates the objectivist assumptions of our moral discourse. Consequently, a theory can fail to vindicate the objectivity of morality in Huemer’s sense and yet vindicate all the objectivist features of our moral discourse.

If I am correct about this, the kind of objectivity presupposed by our moral commitments has nothing to do with whether moral facts are “constitutional” independent of any observer or appraiser.


[1] Examples of divine will theories include those of; Matthew Carey Jordan (2012),“Divine Attitudes, Divine Commands, and the Modal Status of Moral Truths,” Religious Studies 48: 45–60; Mark Murphy (1998), “Divine Command, Divine Will, and Moral Obligation,” Faith and Philosophy 15: 3–27; Christian Miller (2009), “Divine Desire Theory and Obligation,” in Yujin Nagasawa and Erik Wielenberg (eds.), New Waves in Philosophy of Religion (Basingstoke: Palgrave Macmillan); and Linda Trinkaus Zagzebski (2004), Divine Motivation Theory (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press).

[2] Robert Adams, Finite and Infinite Goods: A Framework for Ethics, (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1999) 260

[3] Think of the perennial moral debate between conservatives and progressives, which is over what social norms to preserve and defend and what to reform.

[4] Michael Huemer, Ethical Intuitionism, (Houndmills, Basingstoke, Hampshire, England: Palgrave Macmillan, 2006) 49-53.

[5] David Armstrong, What is a Law of Nature? (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1987)

[6] Alvin Plantinga, “Law, Cause, and Occasionalism” Reason and Faith: Themes from Richard Swinburne, (Eds.) Michael Bergmann and Jeffrey E. Brower (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2016) 126-143.

[7] John Foster, The Divine Lawmaker: Lectures on Induction, Laws of Nature, and the Existence of God, (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2004) 

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Can a Divine Command Theory Ground the Objectivity of Morality? Michael Huemer on Observer Independence: Part One

September 12th, 2021 by Matt
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In a previous post  I criticized David Brink’s argument that a divine command theory cannot vindicate the objectivity of morality. Brink argued:

[1] Our commitment to morality presupposes that moral requirements are objective

[2] Moral requirements are objective just in case facts about what is right or wrong obtain independently of the moral beliefs or attitudes of appraisers.

[3] If divine command metaethics is true, facts about right and wrong depend on the attitude of an appraiser.

In response, I noted two possible interpretations of appraiser independence: (a) a weaker sense, where moral facts obtain independently of the attitudes of any actual human appraisers.  Alternatively, (b) a stronger sense, where moral facts obtain independently of the attitudes of any appraiser whatsoever. I pressed a dilemma:  If we adopt the weaker understanding of appraiser independence, premise [3] is clearly false. By contrast, if we adopt the stronger interpretation, premise [3] is true, but. [1] is unmotivated. The presuppositions of moral do not commit us to this stronger conception of appraisal independence. We can account for the presuppositions of our moral practice equally well on the weaker interpretation. In a later post, I offered similar criticisms of an analogous argument by Elizabeth Tropman.

Michael Huemer anticipates this line of criticism. “[The divine command theorist] might say that morality is objective as long as it does not depend upon human observers; it can still depend upon non-human observers.” He responds:

I try not to spend too much time on semantic debates, so I will just say I think this would be an artificial way of drawing boundaries. Physical facts-the paradigm of objectivity- are not constitutively dependent on any observers whatsoever, they can exist by themselves. If one says that physical facts need some special observer, then one is conceding they are not objective facts in the robust sense that other observers are.[1]

Huemer refers to paradigmatic cases of objective and subjective facts.  Physical facts are paradigms of objective facts: “If there is a cat on the table, then that is true regardless of whether anyone believes it, or wants it to be true, and so on. The cat can be there with no one at all being aware of it.”[2]. By contrast, “funniness” is a paradigm of a subjective fact. “Whether a joke is funny depends on whether it would tend to amuse. People. Facts about, our reaction to the joke constitute its funniness”.[3] Huemer thinks his unrestricted sense of appraiser independence[4] uses the word “objective” in the same sense as it is used in paradigmatic cases. The restricted sense does not.

Prima facie, this is mistaken. If there is a cat on the table, that will be true whether or not any actual or hypothetical human being “believes it, or wants it to be true”. But that is not true if the observer in question is God.  After all, God creates and sustains all physical objects in being moment by moment according to his will. If God did not will the cat and table exist, neither would be there. Consequently, physical objects are not objective according to an unrestricted understanding of appraiser independence.

William Lane Craig raises this point in his response to Huemer.

[O]n theism physical facts are no more dependent on God’s attitudes than are moral facts-indeed being contingent, they are less so-for they depend upon God’s will to create the physical objects and preserve them in being. Observer-dependence, then, ought not to have reference to God, lest the distinction between “objective” and “subjective” collapse. Subjectivism is Huemer’s Pickwickian sense is no longer objectionable.[5]

Craig mentions a problem for any attempt to define objective facts as facts that obtain independently of all appraisers whatsoever. Because God is the creator and sustained of every contingent being in existence, This definition threatens to collapse the distinction between objective and subjective facts. Facts about anything distinct from God will be subjective facts. By this definition, moral facts will be subjective. However, so will the fundamental laws of physics, the fact that the world is round and numerous paradigmatic examples of objective facts. The word “subjective” will be used in an idiosyncratic way.

However, I think Huemer  may be able to avoid this implication. At one point, he defines objective morality in a way similar to Brink:” “there is “objective morality” provided that there are truths about what is good or bad, right or wrong, which obtain, independently of the attitude of observers toward the objects of evaluation”. When he argues that a divine command theory entails subjectivism, he is more precise:

“It [divine command meta-ethics] …is not an objectivist theory. If true it makes morality subjective, not objective. That is because [It] holds that morality constitutively depends on the attitudes of an observer. The observer in this case is a very interesting one-God- but an observer none the less”.[6]

Here Huemer, says an objective fact is a fact that fact does not constitutively” depend on the attitude of observers towards it. Huemer distinguishes between causal and constitutive independence. The funniness of a joke is a subjective fact, not because the joke causes us to be amused. Instead, our reacting with amusement constitutes its funniness. Funniness just is the tendency to amuse. Consequently, objective facts can depend on the attitude of observers, provided the dependence is causal and not constitutive.[7]

By emphasising constitutive instead of causal independence, Huemer may be able define objectivity as strong appraiser independence without collapsing the distinction between subjective and objective facts. Suppose the cat is on the table. This fact causally depends upon God’s attitudes, God’s willing that the cat exists it to exist. However, the cat is not reducible or constituted by God’s willing. The cat remains a distinct thing.  Hence it can be objective, despite its existence depending on God’s attitudes.


I said “may be”. This response may work with physical objects like cats and tables. It is less clear with another paradigmatic example of an objective fact—the fundamental laws of physics.  According to Peter Harrison, the idea of laws of nature was a theological concept developed by early modern scientists such as Descartes, Boyle, Newton, and various others.[1] Whereas Aristotle had explained regularities in nature in terms of intrinsic dispositional properties of natural objects, their nature or substantial form, these early modern thinkers understood regularities as imposed upon nature by God.  Laws of nature were laws God laid down which govern the physical world. Some contemporary philosophers, notably Alvin Plantinga[2] and John Foster[3], have defended this account of laws.

The details of their position do not concern us here. The issue is this. Imagine Descartes and others were correct, and laws of nature are just laws God laid down that govern nature. It would follow from Heumer’s definition that the laws of physics were “subjective facts” because they are constituted by the will of an observer: God. However, it is hard to see anything of substance that follows from this. This conclusion does not suggest that “we” made up the laws of physics. It does not suggest “they are not real”, or they are “social constructs”, or are useful “fictions”. It does not mean that they depend on us for their existence, so that if we ceased to exist, so would they. It does not follow they are not true really true, or that we cannot be mistaken about them, and so on. Everything that leads us to see the laws as hard objective facts would be untouched. By contrast, if we held that laws of physics were laws “we” made up and based on our decisions, that would radically undermine scientific realism.

I will return to this point later; for now, let us assume Huemer can avoid collapsing the distinction between objective and subjective in this way. His argument would be as follows:

[1] Our commitment to morality presupposes that moral requirements are objective. 

[2] Moral requirements are objective just in case there obtain facts about what is right and wrong that do not constitutionally depend upon the attitude of observers towards the objects of evaluation.

[3] If divine command metaethics is true, facts about right and wrong constitutively depend upon the attitudes of an observer towards the objects of evaluation.

I think there are two difficulties with this argument. If limit the kind of appraiser independence moral facts must display to “constitutional independence”. Then [3] and [1] are questionable. In my next post, I will spell out why I think this is the case in more detail.


[1] Michael Huemer “Groundless Morals”, A Debate on A Debate on God and Morality What is the Best Account of Objective Moral Values and Duties? Eds. Erik Wielenberg, William Land Craig and Adam Johnson (New York: Routledge, 2021) 150-151. Kindle

[2] Huemer, “Groundless Morals” 149

[3] Ibid, 150

[4] Huemer uses the word “observer independence” instead of “appraiser independence”, his reference to an observer’s attitudes towards “the object of evaluation”; however, suggests he is thinking of an appraiser. I will use both appraiser independence and observer independence interchangeably to describe Huemer’s view.

[5] William Lane Craig, “William Lane Craig’s Final Remarks”, A Debate on A Debate on God and Morality What is the Best Account of Objective Moral Values and Duties? Eds. Erik Wielenberg, William Land Craig and Adam Johnson (New York: Routledge, 2021) 196, Kindle

[6] Huemer, “Groundless Morals”, 150

[7] See chapter 1 of Michael Huemer, Ethical Intuitionism (Houndmills, Basingstoke, Hampshire, England: Palgrave Macmillan, 2006) for the elaboration of this point.

[8] Peter Harrison “The Development of the Concept of a Law of Nature” Creation: Law and Probability ed Fraser Watts (Ashgate, 2008) 13-36

[9] Alvin Plantinga, “Law, Cause, and Occasionalism” Reason and Faith: Themes from Richard Swinburne, (Eds.) Michael Bergmann and Jeffrey E. Brower (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2016) 126-143.

[10] John Foster, The Divine Lawmaker: Lectures on Induction, Laws of Nature, and the Existence of God, (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2004) 



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Can a Divine command theory account for the objectivity of moral requirements? Elizabeth Tropman, Russ Shafer-Landau, and “Stance Independence”.

September 1st, 2021 by Matt
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In my last post, I criticised David Brink’s argument that a divine command theory cannot vindicate the objectivity of morality. A different version of the objection comes from Elizabeth Tropman. Tropman begins by giving several reasons for thinking that moral realism is an attractive moral theory. She then argues that a divine command theory fails to vindicate this realist kind of objectivity. 

[I]t is not even clear that divine command theory is compatible with a realist view of ethics after all. Divine command theory was supposed to secure the objectivity of moral demands by making morality independent of us. Yet, for many moral realists, morality’s obtaining independently of us is not enough for it to be objective. Objective moral requirements are supposed to be independent of any subject’s moral attitudes, not just ours. As leading moral realist Russ Shafer‐Landau puts it (2003), objective morality is stance‐independent “in the sense that the moral standards that fix the moral facts are not made true by virtue of their ratification from within any given actual or hypothetical perspective” (p. 15, emphasis in original). On Shafer‐Landau’s view, objective moral standards are valid independently of anyone’s perspective on them. This perspective could be one of an actual or hypothetical agent, human or divine. The moral requirement to help those in need would be objective just in case it does not have to be ratified, preferred, or willed by any agent to be valid. Divine command theory does not count as a form of realism on this approach since moral rules are wholly determined by God’s will.[1]

We can summarise this as follows:

[1] Moral standards are objective                                                                                               

[2] moral standards are objective only if: the moral standards that fix the moral facts are not made true by virtue of their ratification from within any given actual or hypothetical perspective.”

[3] If a divine command theory is true, then the moral standards that fix the moral facts are made true in virtue of their ratification from within a given actual perspective. 

The conclusion is that a divine command theory has implausible implications. 

I think the argument fails for reasons similar to the reason’s Brink’s does.

First, as Tropman formulates her argument, [3] is false. Tropman relies on Russ Schafer-Landau’s idea of stance independence: the moral standards that fix the moral facts are not made true by virtue of their ratification from within any given actual or hypothetical perspective” this definition comes from p 15 of Shafer-Landau’s book “Moral Realism: A Defence” in this chapter, Shafer-Landau clarified the difference between moral realism and constructivism. As Shafer-Landau understands it, constructivism accepts the reality “of the moral domain” but sees it as “constructed” out of the attitudes of various agents. By contrast, realism affirms that moral reality is “stance independent” in the way specified. Tropman fails to notice a clarificatory footnote Shafer-Landau annexed to the very next paragraph:

How should we classify views that make the determination of moral truth dependent on God’s ratification of the relevant standards? Such views seem most naturally grouped with realism, even though on these accounts, there is a constructive function that explains the correctness of the proper moral standards. For my purposes it doesn’t matter how we serve this taxonomic problem. All divine command theories incorporate a constructive function, to be sure, but it is also the case that the relevant standard-setting attitudes are not those of any human being-the attitudes (no matter how refined) of us mere mortals do not do the relevant work. Place these theories as you like; I don’t think anything that follows will be importantly affected by assigning such views to one camp rather than the other.[2]

In this note, Shafer-Landau says divine command theories are “most naturally” classified as realist theories. Although, divine command theories entail those moral standards are “constructed” out of the attitudes of an agent. They are not ratified from the standpoint of actual or refined (idealised) human beings. This suggests that when Shafer-Landau referred to stance independence, he meant independence from the perspective of actual or idealised human agents. 

 This suspicion is confirmed by a later essay Shafer-Landau’s published

 Moral realism is the view that …moral judgments are made true in some way other than by virtue of the attitudes taken towards their content by any actual or idealised human agent.

If torturing a child is wrong, it is not because of anyone’s disapproval of such an action. It is not because the action falls afoul of standards that I endorse, or rules that any society accepts. Even the disapproval of an ideal observer – say, someone who knows all nonmoral facts, and is fully rational –is not what makes an action wrong. For moral realists, the ultimate standard(s) of morality are as much a part of reality as the ultimate laws of logic, or the basic principles of physics. Perhaps God (if there is a God) made them up, but human beings certainly didn’t. (emphasis added)[3]

Here Shafer-Landau defines moral realism as the view that moral judgements are not true in virtue of the attitudes that actual or idealised human agents take towards their content. Moral realism contends that moral facts are objectively true in the same sense that the laws of physics are real objective facts. It may be that God has created these laws. However, their truth does not depend on whether any actual or hypothetical idealised human agent ratifies them.

If my interpretation of Shafer-Landau is correct, Tropman’s argument has a false premise. If we accept Shafer-Landau’s definition of stance independence, The argument would be

[1] Moral standards are objective. 

[2] moral standards are objective only if: the moral standards that fix the moral facts are not made true by virtue of their ratification from within any given actual or idealised human perspective.

[3] If a divine command theory is true, then the moral standards that fix the moral facts are made true in virtue of their ratification from within a given actual human or ideal perspective. 

[3] is false. Divine command theories do not entail that moral standards are ratified from any actual or idealised human perspective. A divine command theory maintains that God ratifies moral standards. God is neither an actual human being or a hypothetical human being appraising under ideal methods or conditions.

However, there is a better way to read Tropman’s argument here. Instead of seeing her as adopting Shafer-Landau’s definition of stance independence. We could read her as advocating her own stronger understanding of stance independence. Whereby moral standards are objective only if they are valid independently of absolutely anyone’s perspective on them. Let’s refer to this account of stance independence as “unrestricted stance independence” in contrast to Shafer-Landau’s, which I will call “restricted stance independence”. Taken this way, Tropman is arguing the following:

[1] Moral standards are objective. 

[2] moral standards are objective only if: the moral standards that fix the moral facts are not made true by virtue of their ratification from within any given actual or idealised perspective, human or divine

[3] If a divine command theory is true, then the moral standards that fix the moral facts are made true in virtue of their ratification from within a given divine perspective. 

On this construal [3] is true. The problem, however, is now with premise [1]. For this argument to be valid, the word “objective must have the same meaning in premises [1] and [2]. Consequently, we should read premise [1] as claiming that it is plausible that moral standards presuppose unrestricted stance independence. But there appears to be no non-question-begging reason for thinking this is true. Consider the arguments Tropman gives for [1]

Those who think that morality is objective believe that moral requirements are not up to us; moral obligations would be as they are irrespective of our thoughts or feelings on the matter. For objectivists, lying, cheating, and stealing would still be wrong even if we thought otherwise or approved of these actions.… Moral realism is often seen as the default meta‐ethical position (see Brink 1989). It is natural to suppose that some actions are morally right or wrong, and that an action’s morality is something we discover, not create. Moral realism is appealing because it makes sense of moral error, moral progress, and the authority of moral demands. Since morality is not up to us, it is possible for us to make moral mistakes and genuinely disagree about what is morally right or wrong.[4]

None of these considerations gives us any reason for thinking that moral standards display unrestricted stance independence. The thesis of restricted stance independence can account for each of them. Suppose that the property of being morally required just is the property of being commanded by God. It will still be the case that moral requirements are “not up to us”. Lying, cheating, and stealing will still be wrong even if we thought otherwise or approved of these actions. Moral obligations will be as they are “irrespective of our thoughts and feelings on the matter”. Morality will still be something we “discover”, not “create”. People can make mistakes and genuinely disagree about what God has commanded. People can make progress in their fidelity to God’s commands. Individuals and societies can undergo religious reforms, where mistaken but socially accepted understandings of Gods will are repudiated. Moral facts will still be objective facts in the same sense that the laws of physics are objective facts. It will still be true that moral facts are not constructed from our desires via some idealised method or procedure. None of this is at all surprising; the only difference between restricted and unrestricted interpretations of stance independence is that the latter contends morality is independent of God. For all non-divine agents, the implication of each interpretation is the same. 

In, Formulating Moral Objectivity, Tropman does give some reasons for formulating moral objectivity in terms of unrestricted stance independence. In this article, Tropman examines and criticises several attempts to define what it means for moral obligations to be objective. Early on, she discusses one definition which restricts stance independence to human agents. Tropman refers to this account as M2. She gives the following reason for rejecting it:

“The trouble with (M 2) is that it cannot treat other classes of anti-realist anti-objectivists as such. Divine Command Theorists maintain that an action is right just in case God says that it is. On this theory, moral facts would indeed be independent of any of our moral beliefs. To respect this intuition about objectivity, we can revise (M 2) to refer, not only to human moral beliefs, but to those of any agent, actual or hypothetical, human or otherwise.”[5] 

Here, Tropman states that any definition of moral objectivity, which restricts stance independence is to human agents, is problematic. Why? Because, if you restrict it this way, a divine command theory would satisfy the definition and hence entail that morality is objective. Tropman is taking it as a desideratum of any account of moral objectivity that a divine command theory does not satisfy it. She uses this desideratum to determine which theories of objectivity and stance independence are acceptable theories.

Whatever one thinks of this method of theory selection. Tropman cannot use it in the present context. Tropman is arguing against divine command theory on the grounds that it contradicts a plausible definition of moral objectivity. If the definition is considered plausible because of this implication, the argument is contrived and viciously circular. Critics of divine command theory cannot stipulate that a plausible account of moral objectivity must be incompatible with divine command theories and then use these accounts to argue that divine command theories are not objective. To do this is just to rig the game.

Tropman, like Brink, fails to establish that divine command theories cannot vindicate the objectivity of morality. In both cases, I think the reason is similar. It isn’t enough to say that divine commands are not objective in some stipulated sense or other.  If you define objective standards as standards valid independently of anyone, including God’s perspective, it will be trivially obvious that Gods commands are not objective standards. The question is whether divine command theories vindicate the kind of objectivity presupposed by our moral commitments. The type of objectivity it is plausible to attribute to moral standards.


[1] Elizabeth Tropman “Meta-ethics” Companion to Atheism and Philosophy ed Graham Oppy (Wiley-Blackwell, 2019) 345

[2] Russ Shafer-Landau, Moral Realism: A Defense (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2003) 16

[3] Russ Shafer Landau, “Ethics as Philosophy A Defense of Ethical Nonnaturalism” in Ethical Theory an Anthology, Second Edition. ed Russ Schafer-Landau (Malden MA: Wiley and Sons, 2013).This article is reprinted from Metaethics After Moore Eds Terry Hogan and Mark Timmons (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2006) which was published three years after Moral Realism: A Defence.

[4] Margret Tropman “Meta-ethics” 344

[5] Elizabeth Tropman “Formulating Moral Objectivity” Philosophia 6:2 (2018) 1028

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