I was asked today why my poppy was red and not white.
The answer is simple really.
They died so that we could be free and I deeply respect and appreciate that and cannot fathom those who do not.
RELATED POST:
ANZAC Day: Lest we Forget or Have we Already?
Tags: ANZAC Day · World War I21 Comments
A common objection to belief in the God of the Bible is that a good, kind, and loving deity would never command the wholesale slaughter of nations. In the tradition of his popular Is God a Moral Monster?, Paul Copan teams up with Matthew Flannagan to tackle some of the most confusing and uncomfortable passages of Scripture. Together they help the Christian and nonbeliever alike understand the biblical, theological, philosophical, and ethical implications of Old Testament warfare passages.
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I love the “they fought for our freedom” li[n]e! Why are we more free because lots of working class English and Germans (and some other nations) killed each other in 1914-18? Were the Germans fighting for freedom too?
Anon, there’s this wonderful place called the “library”, full of magical items known as “books”. I suggest you go and read some and learn about tis thing called “history” .
Failing that, Google & Wikipedia should point you in the right direction.
“Anon, there’s this wonderful place called the “library”, full of magical items known as “books”. I suggest you go and read some and learn about tis thing called “history” .”
How wonderfully ironic! It is only people who lack understanding of history who still talk about WWI as though it was a war or Good vs.Evil or Freedom vs. Oppression. It is as though people a hundred years later are still falling for the wartime propaganda. Thanks for making my day with that!
“Failing that, Google & Wikipedia should point you in the right direction.”
Exactly so! I suggest you go look up tyhe real reasons for this (and other) wars… it was not to fight for “Freedom”! lol.
anon, you are right, but far too many people have swallowed, and continue to swallow, the propaganda.
WW1 was about empire and trade, nothing more, nothing less.
A bayonet is a weapon with a worker at each end.
And still we hear the lies as lives are destroyed in Afghanistan, a nation much like Turkey in 1914, one with which we had no quarrel. Will the Afghans be as forgiving as the Turks?
Well glad I am not the only one that thinks that LeftRightOut. It astounds me that people still believe the same propaganda which has been pumped out for decades.
Well Max, you’re certainly not alone, but if you want to express doubt or misgivings, you must be prepared for bullying from the arm chair generals and war mongers. And I find it odd that some of the most fervent arm chair generals are those who claim to follow Christ.
Of all the wars NZ has been involved in since 1890, only one could be said to have anything to do with maintaining our freedom, and even then we were fighting the wrong war in Europe, not the right war in the pacific.
The idea that kiwi’s protected our freedom in WW1 is something I will never believe. I cannot fathom those that do.
Its called ‘history’, google and wikipedia should be able to point people in the right direction. Learn the truth
World War 1 was fought because of some dreadful misunderstandings, World War 2 did need to be fought (not least because of World War 1).
I blame the Serbs.
I’m a great fan of your blog 🙂
Can’t add my name in your ‘followers’ widget ’cause I’m not on facebook.
Thank you for your interesting posts. God Bless.
Our forefathers who fought in WWI believed that they were fighting for freedom, many giving their lives in that belief. I am no historian so cannot comment on the validity of their belief, but I respect and honour them for making the sacrifice doing what they thought was right.
Of course, on ANZAC day we celebrate veterans from all conflicts NZ has been involved in. I don’t believe many people question the necessity of fighting WWII. Opinions about other conflicts are more divided, but the same applies: the men and women who served (mostly) believed they were doing so for the good of their compatriots.
Exactly Waz. I was not making an historical claim or speaking of politics, I was speaking to the valour of the individuals involved who gave their lives.
Yes – I agree to an extent – but they were victims of deceit, not great heroes. The problem with spouting the “died so that we could be free” rubbish is that (i) it disrespects the victims of a crime and (ii) it is a lie which is STILL used to promote wars these days so you perpetuate the myth.
But the people themselves who died? Well they probably did believe whatever lie they were told at the time, but they did not in actual fact die so we could be free.
“but they were victims of deceit, not great heroes.”
I have no issues referring to them collectively as heroes.
They are heroes for the fact that they acted upon their conviction.
To be specific they responded to the mood of the people “the state” and the state asked them to serve, they served.
I consider Willie Apiata VC a hero, irrespective of the fact that he received his VC in a conflict that is the direct result of an illegal invasion of another sovereign state.
I honour the “men”, not the war, not the politic.
They are not heroes because their sacrifice made us free, but heroes non the less.
OK I really don’t want to go down this path but you have forced my hand. Are were the Nazi stormtroopers great heroes? No lets make that more modern, were Saddam’s soldiers great heros? Are the Taliban soldiers great heros? After all they all act upon their conviction, and they responded to the mood of the state which asked them to serve and they served. Which vile war criminal would ever escape from your twisted definition of hero!
As for Willie Apiata, I have no ideas what he has been up to and what heroic or dastardly things he has done. I suspect some New Zealanders sent to these illegal wars have been involved in the kidnapping of foreign civilians to be handed to the Americans for torture – but who can tell. To label a person a hero because they choose to go into a foreign nation with the intent to kill, when that country has not threatened us or our allies in any way, seems to exclude the present bunch of soldiers even from your definition of hero.
“Which vile war criminal would ever escape from your twisted definition of hero!”
All of them as a matter of fact.
Your issue seems to be the result of your definition of service, not my definition of hero. For me service to my country requires that I conduct myself with dignity and honour.
But as you allude to, discussing these things is not particularly productive. Semantics!
“All of them as a matter of fact.”
You will need to explain how . You can’t just state this. Is the Nazi soldier who knew nothing about politics and went to fight because his community told him to a hero? Is the Aussie digger who raped women in France a hero? Where is your line?
“For me service to my country requires that I conduct myself with dignity and honour.”
In which case MANY of our war veterans should not be respected as heroes because they did not act with dignity and honour. Thanks for this clarification. But it makes celebrating ANZAC day difficult… do we need to look at the actions of each individual soldier to see if they committed any atrocities personally before we say ANZAC day is for them?
I say no. However they acted they were all victims of war – and so I say lets remember this Lest We Forget and send more people off to die in wars which don’t concern them. But talk about them acting with dignity and honor to protect our freedom is puerile and likely to make us forget the central message… Lets NEVER do this again! Propaganda increases the likelihood of war – smashing these myths preserves peace. Peace!
“Is the Nazi soldier who knew nothing about politics and went to fight because his community told him to a hero? Is the Aussie digger who raped women in France a hero? Where is your line?”
It is unlikely that any Nazi soldier knew nothing of politics. Nazi soldiers most likely saw their participation in the war (in the early days at least) as an opportunity to address the “wrongs” of the treaty of Versailles (which was not some distant historic event).
As to whether or not Nazi soldiers can be heroes; yes they can be heroes.
I don’t know anything about this Aussie digger, but based on what you have provided, the answer is no.
If I were to say that I know of a man who exploited “POWs” and used them for what amounts to slave labour for his own personal gain – what would be your assessment of this man? What if you knew he was a member of the Nazi party, and that he used Nazi SS connections to gain privilege, resources and more “servants”?
How will your assessment of this person change if you were to learn his name was Oskar Schindler? I rate him a hero and the victims of his exploits were so adamant of the fact that they though him a hero that his name became a household name.
It is not possible for me to rate the conduct of each and every participant in all these conflicts, neither is it my intent.
As to ANZAC day; I have never seen ANZAC day as a celebration of our righteousness, but in memoriam the sacrifice of service men. I have no ANZAC ancestors and therefore have never attempted to put names to ANZAC celebrations. As a result I do not think of it in terms of individuals and inclusions and exclusions.
It is generally accepted that in times of war, war-crimes are committed. It could be argued that if there was no war, the war-crime would not be committed. True but it is also generally accepted that war-crimes are not the conduct of the majority. Answer me this, can you be a proud Kiwi knowing that there are Kiwi rapist, murderers and paedophiles?
Difficult to imagine a statement like, I was to be a proud Kiwi but due to the conduct of Kiwi rapist, murderers and paedophiles I cannot be proud. I can surely celebrate the “good” ones without knowing their names, and assuming that there was more good than bad, be proud of the collective?
As I said before, I agree with you that to speak of the Great War and “so we could be free” do not ring true. Yet you restate it as if it is my point of view.
And in conclusion “Lets NEVER do this again!”
You will need to explain this. It appears from the last bit of your post that you promote “peace at ALL cost”.
“It is unlikely that any Nazi soldier knew nothing of politics.”
Yet this is so often used to excuse NZers who went and invaded foreign nations!
“As to whether or not Nazi soldiers can be heroes; yes they can be heroes.”
Good to see some consistency! It is rare for people to admit to thinking this.
“As to ANZAC day; I have never seen ANZAC day as a celebration of our righteousness”
Good – but sadly this is how a lot of people do see it… we have forgotten. Actually I should say that a lot of my ANZAC day memories come from Australia which is a much more nationalistic nation that NZ is…
“but in memoriam the sacrifice of service men.”
The word sacrifice can have quite a different meaning,.. I agree they were sacrificed.
“Answer me this, can you be a proud Kiwi knowing that there are Kiwi rapist, murderers and paedophiles?”
Well I am not a nationalist by nature, so I don’t see the actions of other NZers really reflecting on me one way or another. I must confess that I find expressions like “we won the rugby” very odd… I don’t remember playing any rugby recently… so not a question I can really answer – I could be a proud me (maybe…) but not a proud “Kiwi.” But if I must put on a nationalistic hat for a moment… no I am not proud of that bit of history we commemorate on ANZAC day. I am ashamed of it… “we” invaded a foreign nation, and “we” sent off our younf people to serve as cannon fodder for something most of them did not even understand… it is a day of shame and regret… it is a time to apologize to those “we” abused – not a time to “celebrate” bravery…
“Yet you restate it as if it is my point of view….”
Sorry.. did not mean to misrepresent you…
“peace at ALL cost”
That is an odd statement… and not one I support. Peace has no cost. It is a free gift. Here have some ! 🙂
“Peace has no cost. It is a free gift. Here have some ! :)”
Thanks.
I know you meant well, but you handed me a piece of Status Quo 😉
How long would we have peace, if everyone in the West thought as Max did.
requiescat in pace
Only the dead have seen the end of war. George Santayana
Si vis pacem, para bellum
ANZAC day is in some ways a tribute to an ideal of the soldier, self sacrificing, gallant, living and dying for his friends to his right and left and for his family back home. It is an illusion though. As most soldiers would acknowledge, being scared witless was par for the course. You didn’t show it of course, not in front of your mates.
I suspect that is the vanity of old men that leads to war, and the high spirits of young men that allows wars to be fought. It is not for nothing that Islamic militants draw largely from young men for their Jihadis. It’s probable that there was little actual enmity between soldiers of the different sides (except against the Japanese at a later time of course) the Christmas truces in the First World War illustrate how easily young men can put aside differences and focus on their shared cultural roots whether it be kicking a ball around or singing carols.
Sometimes there is no alternative to war, but we should look for alternatives if there are any.
I regard patriotism as being much like family loyalty. I didn’t have any say in the family I was born into, just as I didn’t have any say in the country that I was born into. Nonetheless it is my family and my country and it’s me for them against the world if need be.
It’s love of country that gives a person a right to criticise that country, indeed to be ruthless in attempting to eliminate every petty thing that keeps the country from greatness. To borrow from Chesterton, “Rome was not loved because she was great, she became great because she was loved.” Again, warning against the perils of nationalism, “the man who says ‘my country right or wrong’ is like the man who says ‘my mother, drunk or sober.'”
Jason: I have vowed never to lay my hands on a weapon, and I will certainly never kill another man intentionally… so to answer your question:”How long would we have peace, if everyone in the West thought as Max did?”… probably forever! Thanks for your support!
I hope your Latin is not a veiled threat by the way 😉 I prefer to get my quippy one liners from people that wrote in Greek (or Hebrew 😉 ) rather than from Roman warmongers… but each to their own
“I suspect that is the vanity of old men that leads to war, and the high spirits of young men that allows wars to be fought. ”
I suspect this too. I would probably say the greed of old men too. I think the war being fought for ‘glory’ is as fictitious as the war fought for religion. These are used to motivate the masses to fight – but are seldom the real reason the elite want wars in the first place.
“It is not for nothing that Islamic militants draw largely from young men for their Jihadis”
Or the Christian super power States draw largely from young men for their crusades one might add perhaps?
“Sometimes there is no alternative to war, but we should look for alternatives if there are any.”
Very very very seldom. Certainly the wars we are fighting at the moment are not examples.
“I regard patriotism as being much like family loyalty.”
Yes – so do I. And it is equally ugly.
“Nonetheless it is my family and my country and it’s me for them against the world if need be…etc”
And that is exactly the attitude which allows wars to continue. The mindless, sheep-like obedience to serve and die due to some patriotic brainwashing. Now if you considered ALL men to be your brothers and fathers, and ALL women to be your mothers and daughters,.. who are you going to fight? If only more people did think like me.
“It’s love of country that gives a person a right to criticise that country, indeed to be ruthless in attempting to eliminate every petty thing that keeps the country from greatness. ”
Now you are just scaring me. I can hear the thump thump of jackboots from here.
“To borrow from Chesterton, “Rome was not loved because she was great, she became great because she was loved.” ”
Hardly an example of a moral nation or empire – but perhaps an appropriate one for our times.
“Again, warning against the perils of nationalism, “the man who says ‘my country right or wrong’ is like the man who says ‘my mother, drunk or sober.’” ”
And you you came dangerously close to saying just this above…