The Top 10 New Zealand Christian Blogs for October 09 are as follows:
- [1.] MandM 14.5 (3 – 26)
- [2.] NZ Conservative 17 (5 – 29)
- [3.] MacDoctor Moments 17.5 (18 – 17)
- [4.] Something Should Go Here, Maybe Later (HalfDone) 19 (10 – 28)
- [5.] Say Hello to my Little Friend (Beretta Blog) 21.5 (8 – 35)
- [6.] Being Frank 34.5 (36 – 33)
- [7.] Liturgy Worship Spirituality* 37 (34 – 40)
- [8.] Brad Heap 44.5 (46 – 43)
- [N.] Manawatu Christian Apologetics Society 46 (43 – 49)
- [N.] The Briefing Room 51 (81 – 21)
Rank. [previous top 10 rank] Blog MandM (Half Done – Tumeke)
To obtain our stats we ran searches on Half Done’s October 09 NZ stats and Tumeke’s October 09 NZ stats for openly Christian blogs, which demonstrate adherence to the historic Christian tradition in their blog content, then we average those blogs scores to obtain their overall scores.
If you think your blog should make our rankings, make sure you are listed on both Tumeke and HalfDone’s rankings as an identifiably Christian blog and we’ll check you out.
* For blogs that only feature on one set of stats a score for the other set is estimated by factoring in the discrepancy between the two sets of stats given their different ranking methods; any blogs this effects are marked with an asterisk. We suggest that any blog not featuring on both should submit their blog to the ranking they are not currently on as it is not always possible for us to simply calculate the score that blog would have obtained.
A common objection to belief in the God of the Bible is that a good, kind, and loving deity would never command the wholesale slaughter of nations. In the tradition of his popular Is God a Moral Monster?, Paul Copan teams up with Matthew Flannagan to tackle some of the most confusing and uncomfortable passages of Scripture. Together they help the Christian and nonbeliever alike understand the biblical, theological, philosophical, and ethical implications of Old Testament warfare passages.
Keeping Stock will return to the blogosphere on New Year’s Day. Retirement was nice whilst it lasted …
Top Ten NZ Christian blogs (for October 2009)…
The MandM site … comes out on top. The blog is written by a husband and wife team … While you have a few moments, check these blogs out. I’ve only ever come across the 1st and the 5th before, myself……
The ‘liturgy’ website was interesting, and full of pre-made packaged manufactured prayers, but somehow puzzling. I don’t communicate with people in everyday life by reading things at them, so why would I do that with my best friend, Jesus? When I pray, I open my heart, so how does reading someone else’s words (other than Scripture) communicate with God? He’s not impressed with fancy words, or large amounts of them, and the Pharisees found that out from Jesus. You could just as well turn a Buddhist prayer wheel, or intone a repetitive prayer like the rosary. What he really wants IS our heart’s cry to Him, and for us to be in tune with Him when He answers us.
I don’t communicate with people in everyday life by reading things at them, so why would I do that with my best friend, Jesus?
And yet, you have just communicated with people here in everyday life by presenting a pre-written message. 😉
I wonder if you ever send email…
.-= My last blog-post ..Science Says: We’re heading for a revival! =-.
“I don’t communicate with people in everyday life by reading things at them, so why would I do that with my best friend, Jesus?”
Yes, and I bet that you also don’t close your eyes when your communicating with people in everyday life, but that’s because while prayer is a conversation, it’s actually more than just a conversation as well – and in fact it is at it’s most effective when we stop making noise and simply contemplate Christ.
“When I pray, I open my heart, so how does reading someone else’s words (other than Scripture) communicate with God?”
Well, for starters, if those words are the words that you desire to express to God yourself, then someone else’s words would be perfectly acceptable.
After all, that’s what praying using Scripture is all about, using someone else’s words in prayer.
“He’s not impressed with fancy words, or large amounts of them”
Really?
So he’s not impressed with the book of Psalms, or the canticle of Simeon, or Mary’s Magnificat?
Scripture has nothing to say about the volume or type of words used in prayer, instead it talks about sincerity of heart being the important factor.
“You could just as well turn a Buddhist prayer wheel”
No, because if you did that then you’d no longer be praying to God, unlike orthodox liturgy and prayer of the Church, which is actually prayer offered to God.
“or intone a repetitive prayer like the rosary.”
Good idea – it’s a great prayer for reflecting on the life and Gospel of Jesus Christ.
.-= My last blog-post ..Avatar – all hype and no substance =-.
I’m inclined to agree witht he concerns raised when it comes to liturgical prayer – not because it’s pre-written, but because it is often repetitive – the rosay being a prime example. having prayed many rosaries in my life I know that it actually ends up being some sort of contemplative mantra rather than what I would call a genuine prayer.
The other issue with some liturgical prayer is that it is exactly the same every time it occurs. “Hello God, it’s me again, and this time I’m going to say to you exactly the same thing I said last week.”
However, I have no problem at all with a prayer being pre-written. Someone has thought about it, composed it, looked over it, made any changes they thought were necessary etc, and when it’s finished, it’s much more creative and insightful than what I’m likely to come up with in the spur of the moment.
.-= My last blog-post ..Science Says: We’re heading for a revival! =-.
@Glenn: No, what I wrote was not written by someone else and cut and pasted in by me. I made it up as I wrote it. Reading someone else’s prayers is like reading out your school book review when you actually got it off the internet. God wants to talk with *you*, not old Saint What’s his name.
@Brendan: I quite often don’t close my eyes when praying either, especially if I’m out walking! I agree that silent waiting on God is required as well as talking, which I did state. Praying using scripture is not using someone else’s words. Scripture is God’s own word, it is living and powerful. Psalms and the passages you mention come under that. He’s not impressed, He wrote it! He also knows our hearts, and that we are dust.
Sorry, the rosary is a bad example, as I only have a protestant experience to go on, and so only pray to God. (1 Tim 2:5)
I recognise that church tradition has created many of the liturgies that people know and love, but I question whether they are capable of bringing people to a place of real relationship and closeness to God. I also take as a given the requrement for personal salvation. Many churches have no formal liturgy and yet that seems to be where God is moving most powerfully.
Thanks for your response, most thought-provoking.
“I’m inclined to agree witht he concerns raised when it comes to liturgical prayer – not because it’s pre-written, but because it is often repetitive – the rosay being a prime example. having prayed many rosaries in my life I know that it actually ends up being some sort of contemplative mantra rather than what I would call a genuine prayer.”
Which is an issue of the disposition of the person doing the praying, as opposed to the actual prayer itself.
“The other issue with some liturgical prayer is that it is exactly the same every time it occurs. “Hello God, it’s me again, and this time I’m going to say to you exactly the same thing I said last week.”
If you are praying the liturgy of the hours (the Divine Office), then yes, there are certain repetitions, but the Scriptural readings change daily.
There is actually a stability in the repetition, because it means that every day starts with a morning offering of oneself and one’s day to God, and it always ends with an examination of conscience and repentance for sins, as well as the prayer that God would “grant us a quiet night and a perfect death”.
There is something beautiful and profound in that regularity which allows one to develop a relationship with Christ that is built on certain regular absolutes, rather than having to constantly find the fashionable and trendy ways to talk to God – the already prepared liturgy actually enables more freedom to the praying person because they have a stable foundation upon which they extend into more fluid types of prayer.
.-= My last blog-post ..Avatar – all hype and no substance =-.
I quite often don’t close my eyes when praying either, especially if I’m out walking! I agree that silent waiting on God is required as well as talking, which I did state. Praying using scripture is not using someone else’s words. Scripture is God’s own word, it is living and powerful. Psalms and the passages you mention come under that. He’s not impressed, He wrote it! He also knows our hearts, and that we are dust.
“Sorry, the rosary is a bad example, as I only have a protestant experience to go on, and so only pray to God. (1 Tim 2:5)”
Yes, and neither do I pray to anyone other than God, it’s just that I often ask for the intercessory assistance of those saints already present with Christ in Heaven when I pray.
Just like I might ask my wife or my friends to pray to God on my behalf in times of need.
“I recognise that church tradition has created many of the liturgies that people know and love, but I question whether they are capable of bringing people to a place of real relationship and closeness to God.”
Well, speaking as a Catholic, who used to be a Pentecostal, I can tell you for a fact that Catholic liturgy brought me closer to Christ than any praise and worship session ever has.
I say that as someone who was a worship leader in a Pentecostal church, and who still continues to regularly lead praise and worship teams at Catholic events.
“I also take as a given the requrement for personal salvation.”
As do I.
The difference I suspect is that I also recognise that Christ has given us the Church as the ordinary means of outworking that gift of salvation he freely offers. (1 Tim 3:15)
“Many churches have no formal liturgy and yet that seems to be where God is moving most powerfully.”
I can’t agree with this last statement.
If you mean that you see more people having euphoric and outwardly emotive experiences in churches with no formal liturgy, then sure, I’d generally agree with that – but emotional experiences are not the same thing as God moving powerfully.
Speaking again as an ex-Pentecostal who is now a Catholic, and who was involved in Pentecostalism (both as a worship leader and a congregant) during things such as the “Toronto Blessing” and the “Brownsville Revival”, I can tell you that what I experienced during those events didn’t even rate compared to the power of the Holy Spirit I have experienced during formal Catholic liturgies such as Eucharistic Adoration or certain Masses.
Does God work powerfully during unstructured liturgies such as praise and worship sessions?
Yes.
Does God work powerfully during structured liturgies such as the Mass or Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, etc?
Yes.
.-= My last blog-post ..Avatar – all hype and no substance =-.
“Praying using scripture is not using someone else’s words. Scripture is God’s own word, it is living and powerful. Psalms and the passages you mention come under that. He’s not impressed, He wrote it!”
I think you may be confusing inspiration with authorship.
Yes, God divinely inspired Sacred Scripture, but He didn’t write it – that role was fulfilled by human authors.
So when you pray using Scriptures, like the Psalms, you are using prayers written by someone else.
.-= My last blog-post ..Avatar – all hype and no substance =-.
One other passing thought…
If one has a problem with a structured liturgy then one has a problem with the very style of prayer that Christ Himself, and the early Church, participated in.
Jewish Temple/Synagogue worship was structured liturgy complete with priests, altars and set readings, prayers and feast days, etc.
.-= My last blog-post ..Avatar – all hype and no substance =-.
If you are praying the liturgy of the hours (the Divine Office), then yes, there are certain repetitions, but the Scriptural readings change daily.
Actually what I had in mind was the mass, but you’re right, there are other examples.
.-= My last blog-post ..Hanegraaf on Annihilationism =-.
PeteL No, what I wrote was not written by someone else and cut and pasted in by me. I made it up as I wrote it.
But you had finished composing it before you send it. it wasn’t real time.
It’s silly to think that if we use words that someone else wrote years ago, then God’s not really hearing from us, he’s hearing from St What’s his name. You will already have read through it yourself, understood it, and affirmed it, before praying those words.
.-= My last blog-post ..Hanegraaf on Annihilationism =-.
Oh, and Brendon – to be fair, ALL of us – you included – would have certain problems with worship in the Jewish Temple, were it to be reproduced today in churches.
.-= My last blog-post ..Hanegraaf on Annihilationism =-.
“Actually what I had in mind was the mass”
While there is a set structure to every Mass – and for good reason – the Scriptural readings change at every Mass, and their are several different Eucharistic prayers that can be offered, oh, and of course there are the many different feast days, each of which bring their own little unique changes.
On top of this, before Mass, after reception of Communion, and after Mass, Catholics are meant to be engaged in silent personal prayer with Christ.
Speaking of Scriptural changes during Mass, if one was to attend Catholic Mass every day for the entire 3 year liturgical cycle, one would have heard almost the entire Bible read out.
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“Oh, and Brendon – to be fair, ALL of us – you included – would have certain problems with worship in the Jewish Temple, were it to be reproduced today in churches.”
I certainly wouldn’t want to be on the church cleaning roster that’s for sure!
Seriously though, my point wasn’t so much about the appropriateness of temple worship under the New Covenant, instead I was merely pointing out that Christ Himself participated in structured liturgy, as did the early Church, and that they didn’t have any issue with doing so.
I suppose I was trying to highlight the fact that anyone who thinks that Christ was some sort of evangelical/house church/throw your hands in the air like you just don’t care type are laboring under a false assumption.
In fact, it was He who gave us the first structured liturgy in the form of the Last Super, which He commanded us to do in His memory whenever we are gathered together.
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You’ll be well aware of course Brendan, that many simply don’t believe what you’ve said about the early church. They will say that the relatively sparse liturgy of the Lord’s Supper is all the evidence that we have of this structured liturgy you speak of, and when you say that the early church – after they moved out of the synagogues and temples – practiced the same kind of scripture liturgy that you have in mind, the will flick endlessly through the New Testament and the Apostolic Fathers and say “so… where is it?”
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Well, I guess you’d start with the Gospel accounts of the Last Supper which show very clear preparations beforehand (Matt 26:18), and some pretty precise actions on the part of Christ in regards during the Last Supper, starting with the washing of the feet, and then the actions with the bread and wine, and finally the command to “do this in memory of me” – which obviously the early Church took seriously because Paul writes to the Church at Corinth about proper practices in regards to the Eucharist in 1 Corinthians 11 & 12 (where he also passes on some other very specific prescriptions in regards to conduct during liturgies).
Acts refers to Paul’s participation in Synagogue liturgy – in fact Acts 17:2 refers to Paul’s attendance at the Synagogue on the Sabbath as “his custom”.
And in regards to the Fathers, well, anyone who isn’t seeing the Mass described in the writings Early Church Fathers is engaging in some very, very selective reading of the Patristic writings.
Briefly, some examples…
From the Didache (70 AD)…
“Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice.”
Justin Martyr (151 AD)…
“but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus”
Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Philadelphians (110 AD)…
“Make certain, therefore, that you all observe one common Eucharist; for there is but one Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, and but one cup of union with his Blood, and one single altar of sacrifice—even as there is also but one bishop, with his clergy and my own fellow servitors, the deacons. This will ensure that all your doings are in full accord with the will of God”
Cyprian of Carthage (253 AD)…
“If Christ Jesus, our Lord and God, is himself the high priest of God the Father; and if he offered himself as a sacrifice to the Father; and if he commanded that this be done in commemoration of himself, then certainly the priest, who imitates that which Christ did, truly functions in place of Christ“
Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho the Jew (155 AD)…
“God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [minor prophets], as I said before, about the sacrifices at that time presented by you: ‘I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord, and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands; for from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same, my name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering, for my name is great among the Gentiles . . . He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us [Christians] who in every place offer sacrifices to him, that is, the bread of the Eucharist and also the cup of the Eucharist“
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See Brendan, that is exactly what I mean. Plenty of Christians will look at the simple examples you gave, then they will look at the structure of a Catholic litury, and just shake their head, saying “no – these are very different.”
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Which is probably due to the fact that many Christians don’t have a solid understanding of either the Mass, the history of Christian liturgy, and the role/authority of the Church in liturgical development.
This claim (about failing to see the connection between the writings of the Apostolic Fathers and Scripture, etc) could also just as easily be applied to an evangelical praise and worship session, or a mainline Protestant communion service.
In fact, I would argue that it applies even more so to Protestant worship, because the Church Fathers write clearly about the Real Presence – and other things which lie at the heart of Catholic liturgy – and yet this plays absolutely no part of Protestant worship.
I think this is where some much bigger issues come into play, such as the role of the office of the Ordained Priesthood that Christ established during His time here on earth, and it’s relation to the liturgy, which flows from, and leads back to, the Eucharist – which is the “source and summit” of our faith.
And then there is the role of legitimate development of liturgical practice as our theological understanding of different issues relating to the central mysteries of the liturgy and our Faith deepen – remember, the Catholic Church has had 2000 years to develop and grow her liturgy, molding it more and more to accurately sign and participate in the sacrifice of Christ at Calvary.
I think a lot of other Christians have great confusion about Catholic liturgy simply because they don’t understand that everything that is done in Catholic liturgy is done for some very important theological reasons – and that the so-called complexities of structure, etc, are actually very simple, and rather obvious once one begins to understand them.
In fact, the complexity has a lot to do with the preciseness with which the Church seeks to sign the deep mysteries of salvation and redemption which are encapsulated in our earthly liturgy – this desire for preciseness is much the same as found in authentic philosophy, where the use of words (and gestures, in the case of liturgy) becomes vitally important if the fullness of truth is hoped to be arrived at and transmitted.
This so-called complexity actually helps to bring a stability and authenticity to the worshiping community, who, rather than being constantly plagued by personality driven services and issues of fashion and trend capturing their worship, are given a structure within which the important graces being transmitted are signed and participated in as accurately and as faithfully as possible.
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“Which is probably due to the fact that many Christians don’t have a solid understanding of either the Mass, the history of Christian liturgy, and the role/authority of the Church in liturgical development.”
Well, either that or it’s because they observe all the elements of the Catholic liturgy, and then they look at the New Testament and the Apostolic Fathers, and instead of lacking insight or understanding, they genuinely disagree with you as to whether or not there is a correspondence between the two.
It’s all very well to then step in and say “ah, but you need to understand that the Catholic church considers that the liturgy developed over many years and the church has the authority to do this.” OK, fine, but then it’s no good finding fault with other Christians when they don’t see the appearance of these liturgies int he New Testament or the early fathers.
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